different methods for testing natural coral

 Hi to all, Question. Besides the time honored method of water soaking and rubbing w/ paper towels, what other methods are hard core coral crazy collectors using to test for genuine color - or is that the best way. I read about soaking in milk and if the milk changes color there was dye used in the process. Also been told that the color should not be identical and should alter from piece to piece with no high gloss, more of a satin.

I have also taken as truth their word when a seller states that no 'ring' was left around their neck after wearing what may have been real genuine natural coral.

As far as checking golden coral for authenticity, it may start out as natural black coral and is then heated to achieve the color of gold. So how does one test this particular shade of coral to be the genuine article since dye was not used?

I know a little already but love to hear from anyone else that has opinions or facts or good stories, etc. Thanks! Nostradamus (coral crazy collector)

 HI and just wanted to say, "Welcome to the BD Forum."

  I  think you got a Great Question. I don't know the answers, but will be watching the post to see what others have to say.

Someone will come along shortly with answers.

Mary

 I am sorry, can't help you here, I refuse to work with coral... I have been snorkelling in Thailand past summer, and when you see how much coral died due to the turists and such, I tought there are many, many other beautiful natural materials to work with.... 

Nostradamus:

 Hi to all, Question. Besides the time honored method of water soaking and rubbing w/ paper towels, what other methods are hard core coral crazy collectors using to test for genuine color - or is that the best way. I read about soaking in milk and if the milk changes color there was dye used in the process. Also been told that the color should not be identical and should alter from piece to piece with no high gloss, more of a satin.

I have also taken as truth their word when a seller states that no 'ring' was left around their neck after wearing what may have been real genuine natural coral.

As far as checking golden coral for authenticity, it may start out as natural black coral and is then heated to achieve the color of gold. So how does one test this particular shade of coral to be the genuine article since dye was not used?

I know a little already but love to hear from anyone else that has opinions or facts or good stories, etc. Thanks! Nostradamus (coral crazy collector)

Just about ALL coral is dyed or "color enhanced". Some of the sponge (orangey-red) and tiger corals (brown color) are natural. Some corals are softer than others and might be stabilized (like turquoise), which could make them shiny - dyed or not.

Most of the dyes used in coral are stable analine dyes, so just because it doesn't come off with water or in milk or whatever, doesn't mean that it's not dyed. Coral - dyed or undyed - might not have uniform coloration. I have some gorgeous deep red dyed coral in the store that looks like "old time" red coral - the color through the beads is not uniform, but it's mostly a rich red color. The color is stable - a customer asked about it this morning and I used a spay bottle of cleaner and a white towel to show the color wouldn't come off on her white blouse - but it's still dyed.

Real red coral comes from the Mediteranean Sea and (according to my DH - aka "the jeweler") it is regulated by the Italian government and priced by the gram like gold. The last time we went to Tucson, the darkest natural red coral the vendors had was actually a brick red - orangey color. Real dark red coral like the kind you see in old pieces of Navajo jewelry is virtually gone.

I like the look of coral with some things, and I have a limited amount of coral in my store. I have to be somewhat commercial or mercenary (?) in carrying it, since I also have pearls and shells. But, I don't like the destruction to the coral colonies around the world by tourists and the jewelry/bead trade.

The US Customs Dept and the Dept of Agriculture (Game and Fish) have new regulations that have been enacted about a year or so ago. Coral imported into the US, regardless of whether it is beads or a paperweight, must be inspected by a Game & Fish officer and identified and verified as to species, where it was harvested, etc. to determine whether it is endangered or not.I believe that black coral is endangered and protected.

Going back to your question about golden coral, I would say that you would need to know how to identify the different species of coral. Each coral colony has a structure unique to that species. Sometimes the differences are very subtle. It's not easy to identify species in something like beads, where there isn't much of the actual coral structure visible. I once had some fossil coral beads in the store and thanks to my paleontology hobby, I was able to identify the species.

If you are a hard core collector, educating yourself about coral, including being able to identify the different species, should be your goal. You've made a good start by asking here - but keep on researching!

Sorry I couldn't be more help!

Deb

 Wow!! And thanks! Way to get a thread going Deb. BTW - I never stated I was 'hard core coral crazy '...just plain old coral crazy...for now. There's a difference you see!

Did you get all that Mary? its good stuff - hope you were staying tuned in. ;)

And Kimmie - good for you, yes, good for you girl. While I don't enjoy this; especially since I am a new member - I feel compelled to say to you in response since I am no stranger to an internet forum. I bet there was alot worse going on in Thailand then (as well as the raping of their coral reefs) that you should have been even more horrified by, but I understand completely. I personally don't own any coral originating from Thailand - but somebody out there does. My coral was entirely raped from somewhere else. You'd better not be hiding away some of that Thai coral in that sock drawer of yours with whatever else you're hiding in there. Lol! Seriously, please stay away from my thread then since that is how you feel and since you already got to say what you felt you needed to. Buzz around somebody elses or one of the next coral bead threads please. Something tells me...well, never you mind. You may go now.

I do agree with alot of what Deb stated, already learned most of this and I failed to mention earlier above - that the newest modern dyes thanks to modern science and demand = $ - they do not release from the coral, even in boiling water and severe hand rubbing. Corals are injected and impregnated with the dye to appear like a genuine variety. But there are still the older formulas of dye still widely used today that will transfer traces, are water soluble, and collectors can still detect them in this way.

Some corals lend themseleves to polishing more than others and this polishing gives them shine, wax is sometimes employed. I agree that shiny is not always the true test, just one test and to what degree of shine.

And most strands today are randomly fitted (quite purposely) to alter in uniformity of color. Just look at some of the cheap purple coral strands - most but not all beads are one uniform shade and the rest may be more blue than purple.

I enjoy collecting fossil shark, whale, seal and dolphin teeth among many other treasures in the Chesapeake Bay of Maryland. There was a coral reef here during the Miocene Era that pieces of that coral wash up ashore. I too share a paleontology background - I sincerely thank you again for the great info Deb.

I am sorry if my post offended you, I wasn't being judgmental or anything, I was just giving my honest opinion on using coral in beadwork, not trying to convince you to find another hobby, or such. I know there are many things wrong in the whole world, and I do think a lot of people don't respect their surroundings, but I didn't meant for you to think I'd blame it all on you since you like to collect coral. I hope you can still enjoy the forums, this is, after all, a playground for beading enthusiasts.

Nostradamus:

Seriously, please stay away from my thread then since that is how you feel and since you already got to say what you felt you needed to. Buzz around somebody elses or one of the next coral bead threads please. Something tells me...well, never you mind. You may go now.

Excuse me?!?  Your thread?  as soon as you posted it, it bcame the property of BD, open to all, to read and to comment. 

Kimmie stated her opinion in a clear way, succinctly giving her reasons.  I do not see anything insulting or denigrating in her commments.  I don't care for cotal, but Italian coral from the Miditerranian ocean is probably ok.  Coral washed ashore likewise.  I believe your remarks, were quite inappropriate.  If we cannot agree to disagree, then this site may end up like many others.  I do NOT want to see that happen!

Your insinuation that Kimmie might be a "closet hoarder" of marine life skeletons was totaly out of line.

Stan B. is right. Good call Stan B. I'll play nicer at the playground. I play real nice. You'll see. Just know that my tolerance for members that contribute zero to a thread is usually very limited, as you can already tell and have already seen. I asked for opinins, maybe not those kinds of opinions, but none the less, Kimmie was quick to offer hers and there it is. Actually I'm glad now that she's raised that point just for constant and future awareness. Some here might think - just as Mary - that my questions are great, great for both the hobby and the novice collector, and good answers by those in knowledge harder to come by. It's quite obvious already there is more than can ever be learned or revealed in this one particular thread.  

That was nice, yes? There...now we can be friends again. 

Nostradamus:

 Wow!! And thanks! Way to get a thread going Deb. BTW - I never stated I was 'hard core coral crazy '...just plain old coral crazy...for now. There's a difference you see!

You're mincing words! Crazy is crazy, you see - it's merely a matter of the degree of crazy! <LOL>

Nostradamus:

I do agree with alot of what Deb stated, already learned most of this and I failed to mention earlier above - that the newest modern dyes thanks to modern science and demand = $ - they do not release from the coral, even in boiling water and severe hand rubbing. Corals are injected and impregnated with the dye to appear like a genuine variety. But there are still the older formulas of dye still widely used today that will transfer traces, are water soluble, and collectors can still detect them in this way.

 

Some corals lend themseleves to polishing more than others and this polishing gives them shine, wax is sometimes employed. I agree that shiny is not always the true test, just one test and to what degree of shine.

And most strands today are randomly fitted (quite purposely) to alter in uniformity of color. Just look at some of the cheap purple coral strands - most but not all beads are one uniform shade and the rest may be more blue than purple.

I enjoy collecting fossil shark, whale, seal and dolphin teeth among many other treasures in the Chesapeake Bay of Maryland. There was a coral reef here during the Miocene Era that pieces of that coral wash up ashore. I too share a paleontology background - I sincerely thank you again for the great info Deb.

Exactly what you said about the dyes. Modern science, the wonders of chemistry and consumer demand have led to great advancements in creating coral beads with more stable colors. The dark red coral beads I was talking about have a nice variation of color on each bead, as well as throughout the strand. An unwary person would think they are undyed.

Price SHOULD be an indicator, but don't count on it - some vendors and LBS price it high just because it's coral, regardless of whether it's dyed or not. Another indicator of better quality - though probably still dyed - coral would be strung on thread rather than monofil fishing line. I don't have any facts to back this theory, but if it's like gemstones, they don't use "good" coral for "mere" beads. The best quality of shell, pearl, stone, coral, etc. is almost always reserved for "fine" jewelry. My personal hope would be that they use the chunks and bits from broken reefs for beads, just as they use the bits and chunks of some stone like lapis to reconstitute into beads, so that nothing is wasted. I know it's probably not so. <sigh>

Sadly - the bead and jewelry industry is host to all kinds of abuses, from destroying reefs and water sources (such as Lake Biwa in Japan which is nearly extinct from pollution and over use) for coral, shells and pearls, to mines/quarries for gemstones which erode the landscape and contribute to water pollution, and the processing which is a labor intensive process with very few safeguards for the workers or the environment. We won't even get into "blood diamonds" - ugh!

Unfortunately, the consumer demands lower prices and because of the safeguards and regulations in the US, it is not cost effective for production in the States, especially where LBS in general are considered to be "high priced". So - as with so many other things - bead production has gone offshore to China and India. Even stone that is actually mined in the US is sent overseas to be turned into beads (or cut for gem settings) because it's cheaper.

Beading over the centuries has always exploited the sources of the materials, whether it was the clay and stone of a locality, shells, coral, animal bone and ivory or bits of metal and glass. It's a moral dilemma. If it wasn't for producing the beads - even in horrible conditions - workers in some of the poorest nations would have no income at all. Do I only buy "green" beads and take away their meager income and put them in worse poverty or do I contribute to the miserable conditions by buying the beads they make? Even the very best companies can't always guarantee that everything they have has not contributed to poverty, pollution or destruction.

<sigh> Sorry to get off onto such a somber tangent. <sigh>

I have a paleontologist friend who collects fossil shark teeth from a river in S. Carolina or Georga - forgot which. He uses scuba gear and says because of the mud and silt, visibility is near zero. He says there are some monster catfish and some garfish that make that kind of diving a nightmare, because the visibility is so poor, you can only hunt by touch. I wouldn't want to be "excavating" a tooth and find a big snapping turtle or alligator gar attached to it!

I personally think it's cool that gars have changed so very little in over 90+ million years - except size. I have some fossil gar scales, little bits of amber and bits of turtle shell from Hell Creek Fm in S. Dak that I'm still trying to figure out what to do with.Someday, someday - if I ever have time. <sigh>

Deb - aka Paleo Babe in a past life!

CrystalCubeBead.:

Nostradamus:

Seriously, please stay away from my thread then since that is how you feel and since you already got to say what you felt you needed to. Buzz around somebody elses or one of the next coral bead threads please. Something tells me...well, never you mind. You may go now.

Excuse me?!?  Your thread?  as soon as you posted it, it bcame the property of BD, open to all, to read and to comment. 

Kimmie stated her opinion in a clear way, succinctly giving her reasons.  I do not see anything insulting or denigrating in her commments.  I don't care for cotal, but Italian coral from the Miditerranian ocean is probably ok.  Coral washed ashore likewise.  I believe your remarks, were quite inappropriate.  If we cannot agree to disagree, then this site may end up like many others.  I do NOT want to see that happen!

Your insinuation that Kimmie might be a "closet hoarder" of marine life skeletons was totaly out of line.

Pam

Slow down, she and I were just having some bead forum fun, weren't we Kimmie? Okay. Thank you. I can't and won't speak for her, but she probably doesn't need anybody - here or anywhere - to stand up for her. I would stand to reason the same goes for Stan. You can stop sending me emails now Pam. Thank you. ;)

Oh yea, more great stuff Deb! See, Deb likes to play too. This is fun, no?

I think it would have soothed ruffled feathers if there had been a smiley or an emoticon or two sprinkled in the posts, so everyone knew that you were playing. When you only have words, it's hard to tell if you are playing or angry. FWIW, when I read Kimmie's post and your following comments, I thought they were a little stiff or harsh. [Just my 2 cents.]

I tend to get a little preachy on some things so I try to lighten it up with a smile, and lol or a smart aleck remark.

EVERYONE - - -  LIGHTEN UP, OKAY???!!!

For a Monday funny - what do you call a boomerang that doesn't come back when you throw it? [scroll down for answer]

ready?

You call it a STICK! ::Running for dear life, laughing all the way::

Deb - blame my kids for the joke, the little buggers! :-)

Nostradamus, the kind of comment you left for Kimmie was pretty difficult to mistake for fun, not only for me, but for others as well.  Please don't do that kind of thing here again.  I sent you an email, as follows, about this as a courtesy:  "Nostradamus, please be friendly with other members on these forums.  Insulting other members won't be tolerated. Nothing in Kimmie's post warranted your response to her." 

Lightening up is a very good idea, let's do so starting with an appropriate apology from you Nostradamus. 

Stan, thank you very much, I appreciate your quick action on this a lot.

Pam

Pam:

Nostradamus, the kind of comment you left for Kimmie was pretty difficult to mistake for fun, not only for me, but for others as well.

Agreed. I think this may be why this is a major lack of response here from other members.

"Tone of voice" comes through in type too. If you were playing, it certainly didn't seem like it.

Members of this forum disagree on subjects all the time, but we still treat each other with respect and kindness.

To your zero tolerance on contributing to a thread- we all contribute often times to threads where any one of us may not have as much knowledge about the particular post but have an idea that is possible or brings another light to a subject. If you browsed the forums before you posted here you would have noticed that. That's the whole point in the forums and yes often times we tend to go off subject.

We welcome new members here with open arms and love new people joining all the time but I think your comments to Kimmie threw many members off because behavior like that just doesn't happen on this forum.

Anyway Welcome to the forums and hope this can be looked past and you enjoy it here as the rest of us do.

Deb :

For a Monday funny - what do you call a boomerang that doesn't come back when you throw it? [scroll down for answer]

Deb,

Baaaaaad, that's almost as old as I am -- and THAT IS old!