Deb, I agree with you about misrepresentation. I know it is rampant. I'm glad you posted on this topic because I do think it needs to be addressed. I don't know if what I bought is quartz or glass, but I suspect it is glass for several reasons. It's too clear, the broken pieces, and the lack of dye evident on the so-called striations. I have looked at the pieces under my lighted loupe and I'm no expert but it just looks like glass to me.
This is a good reminder for us to be aware of marketing techniques that allude to quality that is just not there. Too often I know I will buy something because it's pretty and I can visualize it made up. I have many things that I do not know exactly what they are.
Can you address the differences between the .925 "sterling" silver and the Bali and Hill Tribe silver? I've heard conflicting information.
Do you have an online store or do you sell at gem shows? I am impressed with your integrity and the care you take to educate your customers. It is a shame more vendors are not like you.
As someone else mentioned in this thread, it would be great to have a place on this site where we could go to for education on materials we use in our beading.
Thanks for your input!
I buy from a dealer I trust, or from a calog which identifies their items, e.g. S [stabilized], N [natural], etc; but these are the only ones I buy. Don't need the junk. I might buy blue [D for dyed] Howlite, if I really needed that color because it absorbs dye better. My wife would probably execute me if I bought "chalk" tuquoise.
I bought some unlabeled beads that looked like crackle glass, but I took a closer look when I got home, looked mor like foil in the glass. I liked it, it was good for my intended use, and the price was good.
.925 is a legal description for Sterling. It contains.075 copper so it isn't so soft. Another, called Argentium is alsdo.925, but with a different metal, and is said to be more tarnish resistant. Hill Tribes Silver must be very soft -- it is claimed to be .999 I have no info on Bali silver. Again buy from a source you trust.
Stan B
Stan B.
Lakeland, MN
USA
Ignorance is curable; Stupidity has neither cure nor excuse.
BlueMermaid,
Unfortunately, you are correct - misrepresentation in the beading industry is widespread. I'm sure some of it is deliberate, but not all. IMHO, a good deal of the problem is because beading is perceived as "mere arts and crafts, not REAL jewelry and not REAL art." So, for a long time, vendors have gotten away with making up names and misleading, deceiving and lying to their customers. I have a friend who owns a bead store "Back East" who visited us a while ago. She was browsing in the store and picked up a strand of white magnesite. Her jaw dropped in surprise - she said, "is this the price you are selling this for?" I assured her it was and wow - she got upset! She told me she'd bought the same thing for TWICE my selling price because the vendor told her it was "Sacred Buffalo Turquoise". You see things like this all the time at gem shows - if you shop at shows, do your homework first. Again, that's why I recommend www.mindat.org
We used to sell online - but with a brick and mortar store as well, it's too hard to keep up with both. I've had to do refunds for online customers who paid for something that I didn't realize Mike had sold out the day before. I've almost literally had to take strands from a customer's hand because the beads were sold to an online customer. We even had an e-Bay store for a while, but gave up because shoppers there are looking for cheap, not quality. My 16" strands were a better buy than "20 (or 50 or whatever quantity) beads", but buyers see the $$ not the value.
It's like comparing my store with Wal-Mart, for example. We both sell stone chips - a standard for beginners. Wal-Mart sells 16" strands of sodalite chips for $3 - for a dollar or less extra, you get 32" in my store. PLUS you get "free tech support" with your purchase.
It's only my DH and I in the store, so there's no way we can do gem shows as well as run the store. My regular customers have a fit if we close for federal holidays! I'd have an uprising if I abandoned them to do gem shows. <grin>
Thanks for the compliment. DH Mike says, "We tell people the biggest lie in the world, we tell them the truth". People are so used to being deceived, mislead or flat-out lied to that they don't want to believe the truth! The only thing an LBS has to set it above the catalogs, online vendors, gem shows and e-Bay is our customer service. I'm somewhat amused and very pleased and honored by the response from this forum. You see, I posted an "introduce yourself" message several times - being upfront and identifying myself as an LBS owner and apparently the moderator dumped them, because they never showed up. Maybe they expected me to spam the forum? I hope I've passed muster and laid to rest any misgivings.
.925 *IS* sterling silver - no need for "quotes". You do need to watch for "Sterling silver plated" or 14K HGE or "solid gold plated" or "clad". Silver plated findings are plated with sterling - and they will tarnish, if they aren't coated with something to prevent tarnish. "Pure" silver is also called "fine" silver and it is very soft.
Bali is SUPPOSED to be .925/sterling. I don't keep much of it in stock because the demographic of my area is more geared toward plated findings. I have to get the defibrilator out when a little old lady picks out a 4" strand of Bali thinking it will be a dollar or two and finding out it's about $15 or so. When I buy Bali, I buy it from a vendor I trust. I pay more than the "50 cents a gram" (or other ridiculously low price) you might see at a show, but I know that it's the real stuff. Just remember the sayings, "You get what you pay for" and "If it's too good to be true, it probably is" when you are shopping for silver. (or just about anything at a show)
Hill Tribe - I'm not sure. We don't carry it - I don't have room for any more silver than I already have - so I haven't done any investigating to decide what it is. I *can* tell you that "German silver" is neither from Germany nor is it sterling silver. Nickel silver is the same. If you have any silver from Mexico, beware of pieces marked "Alpaca", as it is not silver (no, it's not alpaca wool, either <grin>). Alpaca is a funky silver colored metal that cannot be repaired like sterling. Jewelers normally won't repair alpaca "silver".
When we started the store, we bought our first inventory from "the big dog" in the area, Beads Galore. The folks there are great - they gave us a good wholesale price on our purchases, gave us LOTS of good advice about setting up the store, choosing equipment (gram scales, etc.) and are still our mentors (as well as competitors). If a vendor comes in and we get "bad vibes", we'll call Beads Galore and check them out - they haven't steered us wrong, yet! We joke that my store is "Beads Galore East"!
I wish you all were closer to my store, too. We could have a high old time at the "bead bar" (aka our worktable), beading, talking, beading, eating ice cream, beading, and having FUN!
Deb - AZ Bead Depot
Apache Junction, AZ
www.azbeaddepot.com
azbeaddepot.blogspot.com
Funny you should mention "Alpaca" Deb. I had a customer at the last bank I worked at bring me in an old chain/mesh-type purse they found at a flea market in Belgium. It was broken, but she thought of me when she saw it and bought it for 10 Euro ($15). I ended up buying it from her with the intention of repairing it, but never could find a source for small enough jump rings to fix it. There's no maker's mark on it, only a stamp on the frame that says "Alpaca".
As far as I understand, Alpaca and German/nickel silver is more or less all the same thing, isn't it?
I'm sure what I'll do is just take some of it apart and make the repairs with the existing rings. The purse will be a bit smaller, but at least it will be fixed. It will probably be worth more than I paid at that point I imagine, since I know it's an antique.
Jeni,
I did a little research - nickel silver, German Silver, Alpacca, New Silver, British Plate and Paktong are all essentially the same thing. Seems like I just heard the word Paktong describing a nickel silver metal somewhere. Maybe it was on Antiques Roadshow. There are many names for the same metal - often a name, such as Alpacca, is also a trademark.
Does the stamp say "Alpaca" or "Alpacca"? The double "c" version seems to be almost exclusively used by the German company, Berndorf AG, which trademarked it somewhere around 1840-ish. It seems odd that it would be stamped but not have a makers mark if it was an antique, but then again, because Alpacca/Alpaca is a base metal and fairly cheap, a maker might not have bothered or cared to put his name on it. Even if it turns out not to be antique, if you like it and didn't sell the farm to buy it, that's all that matters!
Here in the southwestern US, we see a lot of Mexican "genuine silver" jewelry that is marked Alpaca (one "c"). Alpaca seems to be the prevailing version in Mexico.
DH "the jeweler" (also has a degree in chemistry) says he doesn't know specific differences in them, because he doesn't work with that "junk" and he doesn't care to ever work with it. <the old grump!>
Since Alpacca/Alpaca is virtually the same as nickel silver or German silver, you could make jump rings from nickel silver wire of the proper gauge. Find something that is the same size as the original rings and use it as a mandrel - think of things like knitting needles, orange stick (the things you push your cuticles with), bamboo skewers, etc. Coil the wire tightly around your mandrel (like a spring) and use a Dremel with a cutting blade to run down one side of the coils to form your jump rings. I had a customer who was making a custom piece who used TOOTHPICKS for her mandrel to make tiny jump rings.
I have a peghook from in the store that I wound with 20 ga Non-tarnish brass wire and cut with side cutters (very tedious and not recommended if you need more than 10 or so) to make jump rings and made (kind of) a chain maille type bracelet for myself - 3 rings in 3 rings in 3 rings, ad infinitum. I did it just to see if I could do it AND to wear it so I could test the wire and see how much abuse it would take before the color disappears or changes. I'm thinking of using other colors of wire in the same gauge to make a few bracelets for my nieces.
Hope this helps!
Deb - AZ Bead Depot (edited to fix a couple of oopses)
Toothpicks may be what I need, Deb. They are tiny rings, and the gauge is tiny too-it has to be something like 28 or smaller.
It is Alpacca with 2 c's. (This is starting to sound like Monty Python). I was disappointed there was no maker's mark too, but I think I remember reading the same thing you did. Since it wasn't expensive I'm just happy to have what is most likely an antique.
It's a big enough purse I don't think anyone would notice if I remove a row or two of existing rings to repair the holes in it. I'm pretty sure they aren't closed rings, but I haven't looked at it for awhile. I may have to get it out again. Someone wired it (badly) back to the frame, so I'm not looking forward to taking it apart.
I'll have to try this test for amber because I, too, can't imagine to burn my pieces with a hot needle. My grandpa would turn around in his grave when he notices I do this to amber. He was a jeweler and had a special relation to amber, as he was born close to the places where it is found in today's Poland.
But what hurts me is the expression "natural plastic". There is no plastic in nature and plastic is always manmade. But amber is not. It's a gift of nature and not plastic!
I'm glad that someone mentioned the silver/sterling/bali/nickel....problem. I posted something in another thread in the Introduce-Yourself section about that. Sometimes it's o confusing when even the shop owners don't know wht they are selling.
Kokopelli
Germany
www.kokopellidesign.blogspot.com
www.backnangerperlen.blogspot.com
Dagmar,
"Natural plastic" would bother me, too! But, "natural plastic" is correct (sort of) - much closer relation than the so-called "fruity" quartzes are to real quartz. Until recently, most plastic was made from petroleum, which is "liquid" fossil plant material (that's why petroleum and coal are called "fossil fuels") and amber is fossilized tree sap in a solid form. You can take a piece of copal amber, rub it briskly on fabric like denim and then smell it - it will have an odor like gasoline or tar. This is because the fossilization process has not been completed to make it true amber.
Did your grandpa carve amber? Amber is a very unusual material and is one of my favorites - even before it was made popular by the Jurassic Park movies. I've found very small nuggets of amber when I was on a dig in South Dakota. Dominican amber is pretty, but I'd far rather have Baltic amber. To me, the difference is like comparing a mule and a race horse. (No offense to any mules on the list, of course! <LOL>) I have some gorgeous red amber in my private stash that is waiting for me to become inspired and do something with it.
Deb,
ok, when you look at it like that. I just feel uncomfortable with the word "plastic", as I try to avoid using plastic beads in my pieces. But amber is so fantastic I just have to use it. No, my grandpa didn't carve amber himself. He just sold it in his shop and loved it (everyone in the family has at least two or three amber jewelry pieces), because it reminds him of home. And he loved rummaging through all the jewelry shops, when he visited Poland a few years ago. From every visit he brought some pieces with him.
Yes, I already wondered about all these new "quartz" varieties in the internet shops: cherry quartz, pineapple quartz, strawberry quartz. Just like shopping for fruit and not for stones.
Glass fruit, no less...I have some of the pineapple variety. I knew it was glass when I bought it, I just thought it was pretty.
I saw the necklace with the pineapple variety in your gallery. Yeah, that's what we said before. If you know what you bought and you like the look, it's ok. I also have some beads, which were sold as quartz, but were glass. The price was alright, as you can tell by it, that the beads couldn't be anything other than glass. And I like the look.
A test for amber beads in a store......
If the floor of the store is carpeted, I heard that if you rub amber briskly on carpeting that real amber will generate static electricity. Rub it on the carpeting and hold the beads close to the hair on your arm. If the hair on your arm stands up, then its the real deal.
Sherri S.
Check out my Etsy Store......
http://www.etsy.com/shop.php?user_id=6321824
Check out my Etsy Beads Store.......
http://www.etsy.com/shop.php?user_id=7141344
I don't know, Sherri. I think if a customer took *MY* $60/strand Baltic amber beads and rubbed them on the floor to see if they generated static electricity, I'd be dang tempted to SHOOT them! <LOL>
As I've said before - if you can't trust the store (or vendor at a gem/bead show) to sell you properly labeled (dyed, stabilized, plated, enhanced, man-made, etc.) beads, vote with your feet and WALK AWAY without buying!
**YOU**, as a customer, should never have to even think about about how to test the beads to see if it's real amber, real pearls or anything else. IF you do buy something that is not what it was represented to be, don't be shy about spreading the word to your friends about that store or vendor. There are plenty of reputable bead stores and vendors who are happy to help you get exactly what you want and what you paid for!
Sorry if I sound a little "touchy", but this is one of my biggest pet peeves - bead stores or vendors who deceive their (*MY*) customers!
BlueMermaid: Can you address the differences between the .925 "sterling" silver and the Bali and Hill Tribe silver? I've heard conflicting information.
hi, I'm from Indonesia and Bali is only like half an hour flight from my place :) i spent a lot of times in bali for vacation but you wouldn't want to know that. lol
I believe what's called as Bali silver is the STYLE. they have unique styles that no other country produce. Bali silver supposedly sterling silver as it's the most popular silver type in indonesia. Bali style usually has granules (like daisy spacer) and wire decoration on it. my supplier is Bali based --> Bali Handmade. you can see how they have a vast variation of bali beads.
I did a little reasearch on Hill Tribe beads a while ago. Hill Tribe beads are made in Thailand in some sort of village. you can read the history in Asia Charisma. it's made of purer silver than sterling cos it's softer and easier to shape to their intricate style. i don't remember they say anything about .999 tho. but i could easily miss it.
So in summary, both Bali and Hill Tribe silver are deferentiated by their origins, style, and the purity of silver used.
Tips: try to buy Harmony Ball in Bali. it's pretty, and it dings like a bell. there's a silver ball in it. no cut whatsoever like the usual bell so the sound is heavenly *giggles*. i bought one in Bali Handmade and their price for harmony ball is much lower than the silver jewelry (physical) stores in bali.
Con: too bad that apparently silver price isn't going down significantly in indonesia. somehow they don't go side by side with the world. so if you're in america, i think it would be cheaper if you buy your silver stock (wire, chain, findings, etc) in american websites. unless you want the original bali beads, then it could be cheaper in my supplier's site.
Disclaimer: i'm not an expert in silver, but i love silver jewelries. lol.
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